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Chat Log 2009-05-04

Date Time From To Message
2009-05-04 04:59:24 AM marcf   dummm da da
2009-05-04 08:26:08 AM ncherry   Morning folks!
2009-05-04 08:26:57 AM ncherry   Maybe Afternoon for most of you
2009-05-04 09:26:12 AM *juha*   morning neil
2009-05-04 09:29:56 AM marcf   Hello everyone
2009-05-04 09:33:34 AM jean-luc   m..ning
2009-05-04 10:16:13 AM ncherry   Do all of you guys subscribe to CE Pro?
2009-05-04 10:21:02 AM *juha*   no
2009-05-04 10:22:26 AM jean-luc   Eric is writing about AMX today.
2009-05-04 10:22:42 AM jean-luc   Hasn't been on our radar too much I think (not mine at least)
2009-05-04 10:22:51 AM jean-luc   Any experiences with that here?
2009-05-04 10:24:23 AM ncherry   Rats, Juha, it's US only. If you want I could give you acces to it
2009-05-04 10:24:44 AM ncherry   No exp with AMX, I'm just low rent stuff
2009-05-04 10:25:18 AM marcf   I do, I subscribe
2009-05-04 10:25:34 AM marcf   AMX is definitely one of the big ones, like Crestron
2009-05-04 10:25:51 AM marcf   what I hear is that their self discovery is all the rage with professionals
2009-05-04 10:25:53 AM ncherry   I just renewed and they'll let me access the digital Electronic House also
2009-05-04 10:26:07 AM ncherry   Self Discovery?
2009-05-04 10:26:21 AM ncherry   oh, AMX sorry
2009-05-04 10:28:54 AM marcf   yeah
2009-05-04 10:29:10 AM marcf   we need to market mass hardware that has that
2009-05-04 10:29:52 AM marcf   so when you put an actuator in your network, the software automatically sees it and displays functionality
2009-05-04 10:30:02 AM marcf   this is very close to what we were doing with JMX back in the days
2009-05-04 10:30:31 AM marcf   JMX... AMX...
2009-05-04 10:32:53 AM jean-luc   http://www.smarthome.com/321600/Artemis-V2-64-Device-INSTEON-Controller-with-PLM-AHV02064/p.aspx
2009-05-04 10:32:59 AM jean-luc   very funny
2009-05-04 10:33:12 AM jean-luc   why spend thousands of dollars if you can buy this ....
2009-05-04 10:33:16 AM jean-luc   for 2999
2009-05-04 10:33:19 AM jean-luc  
2009-05-04 10:33:45 AM jean-luc   got there because of a google adword on AMX
2009-05-04 10:34:19 AM jean-luc   AMX has some nice tools for download in their tech area on the website
2009-05-04 10:34:23 AM ncherry   Hmm, 64 scenes, Insteon eats links for breakfast (an Insteon Scene can be many links) I wonder what 64 scenes means
2009-05-04 10:34:35 AM jean-luc   and docs
2009-05-04 10:34:53 AM jean-luc   yeah - it was just funny especially with the text
2009-05-04 10:35:29 AM jean-luc   built in astronoical clock too ... wow
2009-05-04 10:37:03 AM ncherry   Hey, phase of the moon is an important factor in any thechnology it greatly affects FM!
2009-05-04 10:37:18 AM jean-luc   and the people living in the house of course ..
2009-05-04 10:37:50 AM ncherry   Are they important?
2009-05-04 10:38:53 AM jean-luc   http://www.amx.com/techcenter/#Our Most Recent/Popular Application Files
2009-05-04 10:44:39 AM ncherry   Hmm, that link just doesn't work, even copy/paste fails
2009-05-04 10:45:23 AM ncherry   Never mind, I have Javascript turned off and it's just junk without it (sorry)
2009-05-04 10:46:37 AM marcf   AMX is pretty big ye
2009-05-04 10:46:39 AM marcf   yes
2009-05-04 10:50:39 AM ncherry   From CE Pro: Why H.A. Manufacturers Fail: Revisited http://www.cepro.com/article/why_ha_manufacturers_fail_revisited/D1/
2009-05-04 10:51:23 AM ncherry   BTW, Crestron and AMX are high end and the installers tend to not be nice and share there code (another CE Pro article I jsut read)
2009-05-04 11:33:06 AM *juha*   cool got iknx working
2009-05-04 11:33:28 AM *juha*   how does ETS discover the gateway IP address, was that in the IP document olivier wrote?
2009-05-04 12:05:06 PM *juha*   ahh yes of course it is same idea, multicast to discover then switch to unicast
2009-05-04 12:16:18 PM guest2185   hello from Russia)
2009-05-04 12:16:39 PM *juha*   hello russia
2009-05-04 12:17:09 PM guest2185   here is hot weather now... )
2009-05-04 12:17:23 PM guest2185   sry for my baad English )
2009-05-04 12:17:49 PM *juha*   no problem...
2009-05-04 12:17:52 PM *juha*   where in russia?
2009-05-04 12:18:19 PM guest2185   moskow ) {}
2009-05-04 12:18:25 PM guest2185   and u?
2009-05-04 12:18:30 PM *juha*   switzerland
2009-05-04 12:18:38 PM guest2185   nice )
2009-05-04 12:18:43 PM *juha*   yes
2009-05-04 12:18:57 PM *juha*   so you are interested in HA?
2009-05-04 12:19:20 PM *juha*   home automation
2009-05-04 12:19:56 PM guest2185   just interested... ossasonaly )
2009-05-04 12:20:24 PM *juha*   any ideas what they usually use in moskow?
2009-05-04 12:20:35 PM *juha*   knx? x10? etc
2009-05-04 12:20:56 PM guest2185   x10 as i know
2009-05-04 12:21:40 PM *juha*   cool... should have CM11A interface integrated hopefully this or next week
2009-05-04 12:21:48 PM *juha*   no CM15A yet
2009-05-04 12:22:06 PM guest642   ok gotta go
2009-05-04 12:22:11 PM *juha*   bye
2009-05-04 02:07:21 PM niklas   hello
2009-05-04 02:07:43 PM niklas   in what ways is OpenRemote going to be better than LinuxMCE?
2009-05-04 02:07:50 PM niklas   Aiming for a more complete solution?
2009-05-04 02:08:06 PM niklas   like by having some kind of internal API for IR, KNX etc?
2009-05-04 02:08:23 PM niklas   the two seem very similar to me
2009-05-04 02:08:33 PM niklas   I understand that they're not
2009-05-04 02:14:30 PM *juha*   our focus is more on the home/building automation side (KNX etc)
2009-05-04 02:14:50 PM *juha*   LinuxMCE original focus seems to me more on the media center side
2009-05-04 02:15:18 PM *juha*   but there are overlaps as both are relevant to what people want to automate at home
2009-05-04 02:15:25 PM niklas   aha. but how is your focus different? because of the plugins that OR comes bundled with?
2009-05-04 02:16:06 PM niklas   seems like you are going to have like an internal API for some protocols. is that correct?
2009-05-04 02:16:07 PM *juha*   well, things like KNX support -- it is a professional automation industry and we want to address that market
2009-05-04 02:17:26 PM *juha*   sure there will be internal APIs
2009-05-04 02:18:15 PM niklas   okay, I see
2009-05-04 02:18:51 PM niklas   how would that work for a plugin developer? communicating with KNX devices.. is some object used for KNX communication passed to the plugin?
2009-05-04 02:20:04 PM *juha*   right now it works as events that are bound to specific media (IR, RS-232, IP). The events are triggered via REST interface on the controller.
2009-05-04 02:21:06 PM niklas   ah, plugins triggers these events?
2009-05-04 02:21:18 PM *juha*   no, the panels do
2009-05-04 02:21:31 PM niklas   oh
2009-05-04 02:21:45 PM niklas   you're putting the logic on panels?
2009-05-04 02:21:50 PM *juha*   no
2009-05-04 02:22:20 PM niklas   but then how do they know they are to trigger an event?
2009-05-04 02:22:26 PM *juha*   the logic is in the controller that holds the mapping between a command from a panel to a media
2009-05-04 02:22:40 PM *juha*   ie. the events
2009-05-04 02:23:14 PM ncherry   enter the room
2009-05-04 02:23:30 PM niklas   ah I think I see. I think we mean the same thing. panel tells controller to for example turn on a light -> controller ommits KNX event accordingly -> light on
2009-05-04 02:23:40 PM *juha*   yes
2009-05-04 02:25:47 PM niklas   "It sounds like logic for things like KNX would not live on a central server, but rather on something like the iphone."
2009-05-04 02:25:55 PM niklas   this has been scratched?
2009-05-04 02:26:12 PM *juha*   ?
2009-05-04 02:26:30 PM *juha*   I don't know what you're quoting.
2009-05-04 02:31:31 PM niklas   sorry, I assumed you posted it but just noticed it was Dan C
2009-05-04 02:31:32 PM niklas   http://openremote.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=1966219&focusedCommentId=1966335#comment-1966335
2009-05-04 02:31:48 PM niklas   Future of OpenRemote design
2009-05-04 02:32:53 PM *juha*   there are some cases where controller is not necessary, you will find several iphone applications that directly communicate across IP network to gateways and devices
2009-05-04 02:33:14 PM *juha*   which is fine for simple "light on/off" functionality
2009-05-04 02:33:43 PM niklas   yes. but I guess this would reduce the number of OR panel software?
2009-05-04 02:34:06 PM *juha*   but there will be severe limitations for scheduling, scripting, asycnhronous notifications (dunno if iPhone 3.0 push events remove the latter limitation though)
2009-05-04 02:34:32 PM niklas   yes
2009-05-04 02:34:56 PM *juha*   the problem with logic in iphone being is that it cannot run apps on the background
2009-05-04 02:35:04 PM niklas   yea :/
2009-05-04 02:35:06 PM *juha*   which makes it ill-suited for "listening"
2009-05-04 02:35:11 PM niklas   hope 3.0 solves this
2009-05-04 02:35:11 PM *juha*   but ok for sending
2009-05-04 02:35:13 PM niklas   probably wont
2009-05-04 02:36:00 PM niklas   jailbreak8-)
2009-05-04 02:36:18 PM ncherry   I will crush you puny ipod with my uber scripting capapbilities (Hi Juha!)
2009-05-04 02:36:29 PM *juha*   hi neil
2009-05-04 02:37:52 PM niklas   by the way if youre wondering why Im asking questions - it is because Im writing about these kind of stuff in my thesis
2009-05-04 02:38:40 PM ncherry   There are several thesis like this out there, I went searching (hope to do one of my own someday)
2009-05-04 02:39:10 PM niklas   yea. I've been digging deep
2009-05-04 02:39:37 PM niklas   please let me know if you know of any focusing on the "panel" UI
2009-05-04 02:39:40 PM niklas   thats what mine is about
2009-05-04 02:39:43 PM ncherry   Found one relate thesis which was an art degree
2009-05-04 02:40:00 PM ncherry   Let me see if I can find the link ...
2009-05-04 02:40:15 PM niklas   interesting. that would be good. thank you
2009-05-04 02:41:01 PM guest3200   quit the room
2009-05-04 02:41:49 PM ncherry   This will get you started: http://www.evl.uic.edu/chris/MFA/node13.html
2009-05-04 02:41:56 PM marcf   Hey niklas, so far there seems to be few abstractions in the UI field that we can see applied to domotics
2009-05-04 02:42:01 PM ncherry   Chris did this in the late 90's
2009-05-04 02:42:18 PM marcf   the button one, correct for switches, push buttons (numbers) and single commands
2009-05-04 02:42:39 PM marcf   then there is the floor plan one with active zones
2009-05-04 02:42:48 PM ncherry   BTW, don't ask me about UI's I like the command line (but the iPod is really cool)
2009-05-04 02:42:59 PM niklas   ncherry: thank you!
2009-05-04 02:43:05 PM ncherry   Yeah, floor plans, boo web menus
2009-05-04 02:43:41 PM marcf   we are interesting in reading what you find
2009-05-04 02:43:59 PM marcf   we are mostly interested in the tools to generate the UIs
2009-05-04 02:44:08 PM marcf   and the more user friendly the better
2009-05-04 02:44:14 PM niklas   marcf: correct for switches?
2009-05-04 02:44:44 PM marcf   it works for switches is what I mean. Think about the iphone and the toggle button
2009-05-04 02:45:02 PM marcf   it correctly represents a "on/off" switch
2009-05-04 02:45:19 PM niklas   Ah I see now
2009-05-04 02:45:42 PM marcf   for AC, things like the temperature require number display and input, so "buttons" don't really cut it
2009-05-04 02:45:58 PM niklas   Im not looking into UI generation though. but looking into what requirements users have on the UI and implementing a prototype to see if users would find this approach better.
2009-05-04 02:46:17 PM niklas   the approach is more flexible UI - the controller can specify many different elements for the panel to render
2009-05-04 02:46:19 PM marcf   I really like the floorplan ones as the programming of these could be very straightforward
2009-05-04 02:46:28 PM niklas   yes those are cool
2009-05-04 02:46:58 PM *juha*   just hacked together knx ip gateway discovery, seems to work, coolness
2009-05-04 02:47:13 PM marcf   there is such a framework within OR
2009-05-04 02:47:24 PM marcf   what do you mean "hacked to gether" you got it programmatically?
2009-05-04 02:47:32 PM *juha*   yeah sockets from java
2009-05-04 02:47:38 PM marcf   NICE!
2009-05-04 02:47:39 PM *juha*   using oliviers stuff
2009-05-04 02:47:43 PM niklas   marcf: floor plan framework?
2009-05-04 02:47:53 PM *juha*   well at least I get a response... need to parse it :-P
2009-05-04 02:48:06 PM marcf   sorry, the floor plan is being specified for the next iteration
2009-05-04 02:48:25 PM marcf   what we have is a rendering that is generated by the server and rendered by the "player" on the iphone
2009-05-04 02:48:44 PM *juha*   (got my KNX gateway Ip address and port)
2009-05-04 02:48:52 PM marcf   (coolness indeed )
2009-05-04 02:48:52 PM niklas   a picture is sent?
2009-05-04 02:49:07 PM marcf   at the moment a xml description of a button layout
2009-05-04 02:49:14 PM marcf   in the future a picture yes
2009-05-04 02:51:12 PM *juha*   onto world domination
2009-05-04 02:52:07 PM ncherry   I've got a picture of that: http://openremote.org/display/forums/Future+of+OpenRemote+Design?focusedCommentId=1966258#comment-1966258
2009-05-04 02:52:10 PM ncherry  
2009-05-04 02:52:35 PM *juha*   damn that response is a mofo
2009-05-04 02:52:41 PM *juha*   (reading oliviers doc)
2009-05-04 02:53:23 PM ncherry   Didn't think it would be simple did you? They don't want people guessing what they're doing
2009-05-04 02:53:57 PM *juha*   well, thats what calimero is for :-O
2009-05-04 02:54:12 PM *juha*   I just wanna know if I can get the IP discovery of the gateway
2009-05-04 02:54:37 PM *juha*   so I don't need to start ETS just to know what IP address to connect to
2009-05-04 02:54:39 PM ncherry   Any idea what it's using? Is it broadcast?
2009-05-04 02:54:53 PM *juha*   its multicast broadcast with UDP response
2009-05-04 02:55:05 PM ncherry   Got a sniffer? Wireshark is an excellent free tool
2009-05-04 02:55:19 PM *juha*   http://community.openremote.org/display/knowledge/KNX+IP+Protocol
2009-05-04 02:55:23 PM *juha*   you been sleeping or what?
2009-05-04 02:55:36 PM ncherry   I'll look, mostly or what
2009-05-04 02:55:43 PM *juha*  
2009-05-04 03:00:01 PM ncherry   I'm finding that information a bit confusing
2009-05-04 03:01:24 PM ncherry   There are extra bytes that don't see, to correspond to provide information or description.
2009-05-04 03:04:26 PM guest1463   knx is best, fuck the rest
2009-05-04 03:05:08 PM guest1463   i'm using Gira HS since a few dyas
2009-05-04 03:05:21 PM guest1463   would OR be an alternative ?
2009-05-04 03:05:28 PM *juha*   one day
2009-05-04 03:05:30 PM *juha*   not yet
2009-05-04 03:05:33 PM guest1463   oh
2009-05-04 03:05:34 PM ncherry   Juha, I'll print the page out and put it into something I'm used to looking at.
2009-05-04 03:06:09 PM ncherry   Now how do I get KNX in the US? :-/
2009-05-04 03:06:29 PM *juha*   neil don't sweat it, i should be mostly implemented in calimero library so no need to stare at the IP unless you plan to write a non-java impl.
2009-05-04 03:06:38 PM *juha*   i = it
2009-05-04 03:06:52 PM *juha*   how is gira working for you?
2009-05-04 03:06:55 PM *juha*   guest
2009-05-04 03:08:11 PM ncherry   No plans on making any non-java stuff right now. Now to find my IR stuff (dang I've got too much junk)
2009-05-04 03:08:29 PM ncherry   Hmm, scared guest off
2009-05-04 03:37:10 PM ncherry   I found this which explains the discover protocol a little better: http://www.weinzierl.de/download/KNX_BAOS_Protocol.pdf
2009-05-04 03:55:04 PM mredeker   hi guys
2009-05-04 03:55:19 PM ncherry   Hi Marcus!
2009-05-04 03:57:34 PM mredeker   Just ordered a new toy today. My wife wanted a music player for the babys room
2009-05-04 03:57:52 PM mredeker   So i look for a HA controllable MP3 streaming client and found this
2009-05-04 03:57:55 PM mredeker   http://www.freecom.com/ecproduct_detail.asp?ID=3593&CatID=1147999&sCatID=1148000&ssCatID=1148000
2009-05-04 03:58:08 PM mredeker   It linux based and has a telnet a web console
2009-05-04 03:58:48 PM mredeker   Another device for my telnet or web event
2009-05-04 03:59:19 PM ncherry   I've got several Linksys WMS11B's they're okay but a little bit of trouble
2009-05-04 04:01:13 PM ncherry   Marcus, plan to use any in-home streaming servers?
2009-05-04 04:01:31 PM mredeker   yes, i have a linux box which is doing all my HA
2009-05-04 04:01:44 PM ncherry   What app?
2009-05-04 04:02:06 PM mredeker   OR controller, mythtv server, samba and UpnP server (twonkey)
2009-05-04 04:02:24 PM ncherry   I have Twonky on my NSLU2
2009-05-04 05:14:58 PM kdavis   greetings
2009-05-04 05:15:13 PM ncherry   Hi
2009-05-04 05:15:31 PM kdavis   how is everyone this evening?
2009-05-04 05:16:01 PM ncherry   Wet in NJ (and a bit of cabin fever)
2009-05-04 05:16:16 PM kdavis   it's rainy in the city as well
2009-05-04 05:16:45 PM ncherry   I've been playing with Groovy a bit and getting comfortable with it.
2009-05-04 05:16:59 PM kdavis   nice
2009-05-04 05:17:22 PM ncherry   I'm finding the stuff I'm used to in Perl not difficult to translate (not necessarily OOp but it's a start)
2009-05-04 05:18:01 PM ncherry   I'm still trying to grasp how we get the scripting between the modules and the remote (or in front of the modules at least)
2009-05-04 05:18:18 PM ncherry   I know what I want it to do but no idea how
2009-05-04 05:20:06 PM kdavis   you'll learn
2009-05-04 05:20:50 PM ncherry   I don't have a choice, otherwise we have remote control not home automation
2009-05-04 05:21:18 PM kdavis   exactly
2009-05-04 05:22:10 PM ncherry   Juha, managed to get the KNX Discovery working, not sure he's interpretingth
2009-05-04 05:22:31 PM ncherry   ... interpreting the data or looking at the raw result
2009-05-04 05:22:46 PM kdavis   that's good
2009-05-04 05:22:48 PM kdavis   progress
2009-05-04 05:22:56 PM ncherry   I tried to make heads/tails of the wiki page but I think it may be wrong
2009-05-04 05:23:15 PM ncherry   I did find a link with more info in a PDF on Discovery
2009-05-04 05:23:33 PM kdavis   what's the wiki link?
2009-05-04 05:23:47 PM ncherry   our wiki has the same address in the server and client portion ... hold on for URL
2009-05-04 05:24:29 PM ncherry   http://community.openremote.org/display/knowledge/KNX+IP+Protocol#KNXIPProtocol-Discoverprocedure
2009-05-04 05:25:30 PM ncherry   I don't want to monkee with something I'm not certain of. I should include the link I found
2009-05-04 06:01:01 PM kdavis   looks like I might have killed the conversation
2009-05-04 06:01:53 PM ncherry   It must be your breath ({)
2009-05-04 06:01:55 PM ncherry  
2009-05-04 06:02:00 PM kdavis   lol
 
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Last edit by Juha Lindfors on May 05, 2009 11:27

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