Robin H wrote on Jul 28, 2008 20:10:
Do you know of a good on-line reference for KNX? Official KNX sites offer booklets for sale. I found this

This is an old post. Yes we have followed through and I believe JL ordered the booklets and sent them to my parents address in Spain. I will be taking a look at this very soon. JL will be travelling for the next days I believe. KNX in the US would be a killer thing.

Worth noting is that the KNX spec is rather extensive. It's 10 volumes.

Not all of that is relevant to us at this stage, there's a lot regarding certification and conformance testing but chances are MF will need some helping hands there :-)

Thomas Heute has already volunteered.

Juha Lindfors wrote on Jul 28, 2008 21:56:
Worth noting is that the KNX spec is rather extensive. It's 10 volumes. Not all of that is relevant to us at this stage, there's a lot regarding certification and conformance testing but chances are MF will need some helping hands there :-) Thomas Heute has already volunteered.

That was before i knew it was 10 volumes ;) Just kidding

KNX looks pretty neat indeed, at least the hardware you can find that is compliant and certified.

Thomas Heute wrote on Jul 28, 2008 22:45:

Juha Lindfors wrote on Jul 28, 2008 21:56:
Thomas Heute has already volunteered.

That was before i knew it was 10 volumes ;) Just kidding KNX looks pretty neat indeed, at least the hardware you can find that is compliant and certified.

Oh come on EE was like 50 volumes! we still beat it!

And yeah the point is this ecosystem that is around us by the mere fact of working on KNX. Ahh I love the smell of standards in the morning. We can focus on the software. As Neil pointed out only him knows his way around a soldering iron. MS doesn't know his way around a soldering iron, si? I mean he writes in C for sure, but soldering iron?

So you will be able to test this easily. As soon as I get it Thomas I will let you know. It will be a good project and a nice opportunity to get deep. Glad you are on board, looking forward to this. Should get it by mid-august. Should be EST timezone by then. Juha was talking about a get together somewhere :) I should come to CH or you come to Spain.

Marc Fleury wrote on Jul 28, 2008 23:06:
Oh come on EE was like 50 volumes! we still beat it! And yeah the point is this ecosystem that is around us by the mere fact of working on KNX. Ahh I love the smell of standards in the morning. We can focus on the software. As Neil pointed out only him knows his way around a soldering iron. MS doesn't know his way around a soldering iron, si? I mean he writes in C for sure, but soldering iron? So you will be able to test this easily. As soon as I get it Thomas I will let you know. It will be a good project and a nice opportunity to get deep. Glad you are on board, looking forward to this. Should get it by mid-august.

Sounds good, i will be on vacation from this Friday for 2 weeks, i will try not to touch a keyboard in the meantime. So when i'll be back you should have it.

Should be EST timezone by then. Juha was talking about a get together somewhere :) I should come to CH or you come to Spain.

The wine festival is still at the end of September in CH. I hope we can get automated valves by then.

On a serious note, the KNX spec is paper only ? Not very convenient for a shared team. Are we allowed to copy relevant parts ?

Thomas Heute wrote on Jul 29, 2008 00:05:
On a serious note, the KNX spec is paper only ? Not very convenient for a shared team. Are we allowed to copy relevant parts ?

Should be a CD. Don't know about license yet, if any.

Marc Fleury wrote on Jul 28, 2008 23:06:

Thomas Heute wrote on Jul 28, 2008 22:45:

Juha Lindfors wrote on Jul 28, 2008 21:56:
Thomas Heute has already volunteered.

That was before i knew it was 10 volumes ;) Just kidding KNX looks pretty neat indeed, at least the hardware you can find that is compliant and certified.

Oh come on EE was like 50 volumes! we still beat it!

IBM has you guys beat. ;-)

And yeah the point is this ecosystem that is around us by the mere fact of working on KNX. Ahh I love the smell of standards in the morning. We can focus on the software. As Neil pointed out only him knows his way around a soldering iron. MS doesn't know his way around a soldering iron, si? I mean he writes in C for sure, but soldering iron?

GAH! I can't take the pressure. Too much pressure, I can't take it!! I'm the only one who can program with a soldering iron! I need some more caffine! No wonder I'm left talking to myself. ;-)

I'll be over here in the corner inhaling solder fumes ... wow .... mmmm ...

Is there a site that has product lists and pricing for various KNX devices? Do they offer U.S. compatible stuff?

Wade Wassenberg wrote on Jul 29, 2008 04:55:
Is there a site that has product lists and pricing for various KNX devices? Do they offer U.S. compatible stuff?

I've not seen anything in the US on KNX (or EIB it's predecessor). That doesn't mean it isn't here. Many people would be surprised that X10 (really A10) is used in the hotel/motel industry.

In the members section of KNX there are only 2 USA companies.

This one claims to be the first KNX certified company in US: http://www.nstus.com/index.php

The website doesn't show a list of products though.

The other one seems to only have a gateway from their product to KNX products.

So it looks like we wouldn't be the first to implement KNX in Java

See http://sourceforge.net/projects/calimero they at least implement part of it. The following project uses Calimero: http://knxathome.fh-deggendorf.de/knxathome/wiki/index.php/KNXatHome

They are both GPL licensed, which i think kills the hopes to reuse that. (But i suck at licenses, so i thought i would still mention those projects, just in case)

Calimero is very very interesting, here is the actual homepage: http://calimero.sourceforge.net/

I've read through all the documents linked on this page and I'm slowly learning how KNX works. But we really need those KNX handbooks - this is Siemens-ware. (Think IBM stuff, just 100 times more convoluted.)

Interesting is that all the KNX open source projects linked from the Calimero homepage are more or less inactive, or haven't been really active to begin with. Calimero looks like the stack we could build on and they have just released a 2.0 alpha.

What about the license ? Would it fit ? It there is a fit i would look deeper in calimero's code.

We left the OR licensing questions open for now. It might be CC BY-NC-SA for some stuff, it might be GPL for other pieces. However, if we are able to build something based on other GPL software, that tilts the scale for that part towards GPL, naturally. So yes, we should look at Calimero.

I have the lead authors master thesis open on my screen, which describes some of the fundamentals. It's in German, so I should probably read it :)

That is great news. If indeed the project has some life in it then we should consider federation and getting these guys interested. Is this a PhD work that was OSS'ed?

On the license, the ORC is increasingly a software play and as such would be very compatible with the GPL and dual licensing.

Sounds good, i will have a close look at the code then. And i let Christian with the German thesis...

My german knowledge is limited to Kaputt and Sauerkraut (and Heute of course)

Look at Calimero, the thesis paper is only about KNX@Home - which is actually what we are doing (almost).

Supporting KNX is what we are doing. Offering integration with other vendors and easy programming models on top is what we are investigating. I was reading one of the KNX command files from Calimero, it is a bit convoluted and certainly not something meant for everyday programming. Visual programming has got to be it.

Coming in late, sorry. But maybe this stuff helps you. (I see you already found Calimero)

http://www.auto.tuwien.ac.at/knx http://www.smarthouse.ee/content.php?content.105

I hope this helps to progressing this further in the KNX direction. As a KNX Installer in South Africa, I'll keep an eye on this. If you guys get something up and running, I'm sure my colleague and I could test things as we're looking for entry-level solutions for clients.

Also, if you need reference for Java-based KNX control, take a look at www.bab-tec.biz. They sell a few products that might interest you there.

If you want more information from a C-coded product, (read: not programmed in ETS but hand-coded) check out http://www.dktgroup.com/

Hey Jean-Pierre,

glad to see worldwide KNX and hearing you are interested in the entry level solutions for clients. This is clearly a standard that has emerging potential, industry support in HA is important. I would personally like to see adaptations of KNX products to the US market. Calimero is very interesting as a layer that provides all the network communication abstraction.

Marc,

Thanks for the reply. As far as entry level, no. I don't view this as entry level. I view it as a step to brining KNX-based product to the market at cost-factors that more people can actually afford. It is a lovely Bus-system, easy to program and use practically. Reliability is enormously solid - we have only ever had problems due to mis-wiring by electricians (wiring an intercom into the Bus) and other electrical issues, like faulty neutrals in the Distribution Boards. Other than those things, and initial teething pains when an owner becomes used to the system, what it can do and discovers what he/she wants it to do, it has been a trouble- and hassle-free experience. So when you mention, entry level, I don't know there is truly an, entry-level solution for KNX as it is a solid protocol and anything built to its standards cannot help but be effective and reliable. (Sorry if it sounds like a brochure, but I really enjoy not having to go sort out faults on-site)

That said, the US Market has begun. I know Russound is reportedly a KNX Member now, and should be bringing an A-Bus Interface for KNX to market sometime soon. That would be huge, as far as inexpensive Audio/Video distribution systems are concerned. (Well, again, relative to other options) Also, on the high-end, AMX is also a Member now and the aforementioned DKT Group offer an A/V Controller that interfaces with Crestron, so there are U.S. solutions for certain things that are trickling in. Being Canadian, I'm interested in it for my family still in the frozen North. ;)

So, I'm keen to help in testing. Let me know if you need any info and I'll keep feeding you links, like this one for a Driver to connect a Linux PC to KNX via USB:

Cheers

Jean-Pierre

Hello Jean-Pierre,

Jean-Pierre Joubert wrote on Aug 08, 2008 08:25:
That said, the US Market has begun. I know Russound is reportedly a KNX Member now, and should be bringing an A-Bus Interface for KNX to market sometime soon. That would be huge, as far as inexpensive Audio/Video distribution systems are concerned. (Well, again, relative to other options) Also, on the high-end, AMX is also a Member now and the aforementioned DKT Group offer an A/V Controller that interfaces with Crestron, so there are U.S. solutions for certain things that are trickling in. Being Canadian, I'm interested in it for my family still in the frozen North. ;)

Another community member pointed us to BACnet and I took a brief glance at it. To me it struck as very similar to KNX but being more focused on North American market. Looking at the BACnet International website they are now working on conformance testing, training and certification programs similar to what exist with KNX. And there's a standardized mapping between BACnet object types and KNX datatypes that should offer a level of interoperability.

Anything with regards to this showing up on your radar?

Jean-Pierre Joubert wrote on Aug 08, 2008 08:25:
So, I'm keen to help in testing. Let me know if you need any info and I'll keep feeding you links, like this one for a Driver to connect a Linux PC to KNX via USB: KNX USB Driver

Thanks for this link to the USB driver. Can you help me understand what I will need for testing? I don't even have a KNX switch as is :) Then what do I use to actually plug into the bus? I assume there are serial BCUs? Serial dongles with BT could work wonders here. What do I actually need to test an installation?

I have found this on google Busch-Jäger EIB sensor USB, art. no. 6123 USB-82 and BCU art. no. 6120 U-102, vendor ID 0x145c, product ID 0x1330

Jean was saying...

That said, the US Market has begun. I know Russound is reportedly a KNX Member now, and should be bringing an A-Bus Interface for KNX to market sometime soon. That would be huge, as far as inexpensive Audio/Video distribution systems are concerned. (Well, again, relative to other options) Also, on the high-end, AMX is also a Member now and the aforementioned DKT Group offer an A/V Controller that interfaces with Crestron, so there are U.S. solutions for certain things that are trickling in. Being Canadian, I'm interested in it for my family still in the frozen North. ;)

Just as an addendum to this... I am about to use a DKT Freeway controller on a project myself as it's a great product. It's not the only way to connect KNX to Crestron, in fact, the most common way I've seen is to use a RS232 KNX gateway. Crestron have badged one made by Elka and have called it the CG-EIB gateway. I've used this on a number of projects and it works fine.

It would be great to see KNX penetrate the US market much much further however I suspect the motives behind Russound and AMXs' involvement is more to do with the fact that KNX is well used in continental Europe and has rapidly growing markets in the Middle East, the UK and out into China etc.

JPJ,

Seeing the naming is helpful and of the form Lights.location with some metadata sauce. Creating an OR importer from a ETS output file would be a great a great little project and I encourage you to look into developing it if you have the ability. It would be a needed step to automate KNX support so you don't have to redeclare topology as a user and installer.

The KNX spec focuses on implementing the references we care about offering them in a programming environment, how the lookup is done is almost irrelevant to us as programmers. We will talk about injection of named instances and singletons, which is really the devices seen as services that one can lookup by instance and logical grouping. Scene programming could become easy, who knows...

Jeremy, When you are ready with your code let us know, show us if you can!

Will do - I will hopefully have something up and running this week all being well (midnight oil burning allowing!). On a side note it is worth looking the functionality offered by KNX devices such as the Gira HomeServer. These and other similar KNX products from manufacturers like Jung and Merten provide a UI for lots of functionality including logic, scene setting, timers, remote access etc.

I would be very much planning on having functionality that supports these type of features as these are critical to a sensible automated home/office implementation.